Retail Intel

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Brian Sheehan: 0:04

Welcome to Retail Intel, the podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of commercial real estate. I'm your host, brian Sheehan, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this journey through the bustling streets of retail, the aisles of shopping centers and the world of commercial property investment. Today, I'm excited to have Michael Ruvalo, president and CEO of X-Golf America with us. Michael has an inspiring story of entrepreneurship and innovation in the experiential retail space. X-golf America is known for its cutting-edge indoor golf simulators and entertainment venues combining technology and fun to create an exceptional experience for golf enthusiasts.

Brian Sheehan: 0:48

I'm eager to learn more about his journey and the story behind X-Golf America. Well, Michael, I'd love to start with your background. Can you tell me more about your career journey and what led you to become president and CEO of X-Golf America? What led you to become president and CEO of X-Golf America?

Michael Ruvolo: 1:05

Yeah, so I came from typically a sports background in general. I started my career off after college in minor league baseball, minor league sports so out in the western slope of Colorado, came back over, did some corporate finance for a little bit and then I ended up back in sports again with the athletic department at Colorado State University and a buddy of mine told me hey, there's this really cool indoor golf thing. I think you should check it out. So I got in the car, drove over to Grand Junction actually at the time, colorado and I checked it out. I thought it was a really cool concept and talked to a friend of mine who was working with me at the time and said hey, what do you think about us starting this up, getting going on? It Made my first email to X-Golf America at the time it was a new franchise and got my first store opened in May of 2019. So my background started there and when I originally called them, I was like, hey, I want to do a store in Fort Collins, colorado. What does it look like? I would like to eventually do multiple stores. And you know they said, sure, that's great, we have another opportunity to do some larger investment in the company because we are going to take this to a franchise model that year, and so I proceeded to do that as well and at the same time, in the next so six or five years, I ended up opening five stores, including that one, obviously in Fort Collins, which at the time was the 13th store in America opened.

Michael Ruvolo: 2:34

And then, when it came time this summer, this past summer I was approached that there was a change in leadership potentially coming and would I be interested in that position. And I said, sure, I just need to understand what it is and what it entails. And yeah, I'm definitely interested. And came November of this year the board of directors made that decision that they were going to move forward, with me being the CEO and president. And here we are six months later, I guess right. So it's been a little bit of a whirlwind. It's a new position for me, but I've been managing five locations. Obviously I've treated that as my own little tiny franchise. Now I've obviously come into a bigger scale with 130 locations and growing a lot faster than I was five. So that's kind of how I got to this position and it's been a fun journey, but I think it's the future does look pretty bright.

Brian Sheehan: 3:28

Yeah, it's incredible and congratulations. By the way, what inspired you? What made you want to take on this role? I mean, presumably you're doing well with the locations that you have. What was it about the role? That sounded interesting and you know what's your vision, I guess, for the role both as being a franchisor and franchisee.

Michael Ruvolo: 3:48

Yeah, it's a really good question. So what inspired me was I am, like, the most competitive person in the world, like I just want to be the best at everything I've done. I played Division One college baseball and our team wasn't the best, but every day we thought that we could be the best Right day we thought that we could be the best Right, and so that's kind of how I grew up. That's the mentality I grew up and my stores were doing extremely well and that's why I think I was approached in large part for this position. I was doing great, I could sit back and golf every day outside if I wanted to and I wouldn't have to worry about a thing. But what inspired me was mostly is the success of other people really fuels me, the success of other people within my organization. So if I have five stores of my own, the success of each individual location really fueled me. So I thought shoot man, on a grander scale, let's do 130 locations, and the success of each individual location will fuel me that much more and make it that much more enjoyable and, to be honest, it really has. I have now taken a step back from my locations because on a grander scale I have a much bigger responsibility. My locations can run. I have a very good team that's been established for the last five years. They can run on their own. They don't really need my assistance and my I guess, quote, unquote expertise. That my success, I hope, bleeds into the new stores and the old stores that might've not seen the level of support that they wanted in the past.

Michael Ruvolo: 5:22

And that was my main goal when I came into this. It was, hey, how do I get all these stores? For the first four months was we're going to focus on the current franchisees that we have and how do I get them up to the level of success that my stores are seeing? Because, at the end of the day, if we have a store that is not as successful as the others, that's what people are going to look at. Right, when we want to expand and we want to do new stores, they're going to say, well, this store and so-and-so is not doing well. They don't really care that the store in Denver or the store in Fort Collins is doing extremely well. They're only going to look at what's the worst case scenario for themselves. And so my goal was hey, let's get as many stores as we currently have. Let's hit a pause almost on the expansion because we expanded so fast. I mean 2019, I was the 13th store in America. Now we have 130 in 2025. That goes with a three-month to six-month stoppage during COVID, right, and I'm sure we'll get into that.

Michael Ruvolo: 6:21

But that was my goal and so now that we've got, we feel we're doing extremely well through what we call our busy time being January, february, march. Essentially we are up 33% year over year on same store sales, which is a crazy jump for us. But to that point, you know, my stores might be down a little bit compared to what they are. I'm okay with that. As now the CEO of X Golf America, my success is now going to be judged off the entire company. I don't really want to focus necessarily on Colorado stores or Nebraska stores, but I still give them the focus. But now it's on the 130 stores. So getting them up to viability, getting them up to success and then from there now we're going to start looking at expansion. So we're in a really good spot. So now we're going to really start hitting that expansion meter.

Brian Sheehan: 7:12

Well, so X-Golf America. How do you explain it to people who are unfamiliar with your brand and the concept?

Michael Ruvolo: 7:20

Yeah, I think it's a very I've heard it described in many different ways At the end of the day, it is a rugged environment for competitive nature of both men and women. With a bar right, I mean, this is what we do. We have a lot of fun, we have a lot of competitions, competitions, and it's also an environment where you don't have to feel pressured at necessarily the golf course, where you have a time clock on you right, so you better get that round completed in four and a half hours, or the person behind you is going to get mad or the marshal is going to get mad at you. You come into X-Golf, that bay is your bay for whatever time you decided that you're going to play it on. So there's no pressure in it. We get a lot of beginners but we also get a lot of very, very good golfers.

Michael Ruvolo: 8:10

We have national tournaments, we got national leagues, so it's a competitive environment, but at the same time I equate it similarly to bowling mixed with just golf. It's a golf bowling alley, but you just have really a lot of fun. It's kind of new age, it's like a big kids arcade almost as well. So that's what we kind of strive for. We're in the entertainment business. We're in the customer service business. We're never going to be rated as the best golf course in America, but what we can be is we have amazing technology provided to us so we have an opportunity to be the best customer service people in America. So we strive for that. We strive for it to be almost like your hometown bar that you guys can go and hang out and have fun at Not necessarily a country club vibe, but more of an all-inclusive Everybody can come in, have fun, no dress codes, stuff like that.

Brian Sheehan: 9:03

It's interesting. A friend of mine and there's a neighborhood pub down the street sometimes refers to this pub as kind of a country club, like environment, and there've been times I've been in there. You know, having a beer, shooting the breeze, thinking gosh, it'd be so fun if there was a simulator in here. You know, take a few swings, work on your swing, your swing, whatever it is, but you know it's still so. The indoor golf simulator then you still pretty new. This is a interesting niche and I'm curious what some of your biggest challenges have been taking it from one location to 130 locations, or five or 13, whenever you started.

Michael Ruvolo: 9:46

Yeah, that's a great question. So the biggest challenge was simulators are different. Right, there's a different simulator everywhere everybody goes. But that's why we as a group everybody that's involved with X-Golf did X-Golf because our simulators are different. But we strive for the short game aspect of things you can fully put out on our simulators. Our short game is just significantly better than every other simulator.

Michael Ruvolo: 10:10

The only area that I would say that we probably lack in right now which we are improving even this week and next week we're actually rolling out a new update is the lack of courses. Compared to, say, the Trackmans or the Foresights, they just have access to a little bit more courses right now, but we are improving that and by the end of the year I see a significant increase in courses for us. But the hardest part was explaining to people what X-Golf is, because there's so many mom and pop shots that come up right now as far as simulators, and they all have, you know, some kind of simulator in their name, and so we get people to this day, five and a half years later, of opening a store that, oh, I thought this was a golf retail store. Well, we don't really do a lot of retail. We're essentially a golf course with a bar that you don't ever have to travel to because the cart person is always at your hole, right? So it is that explanation.

Michael Ruvolo: 11:01

We need to do a better job on a brand awareness factor in the nation and we're starting to really develop that. The brand awareness is increasing in the United States. We're in 38 states right now, including Washington DC, which I know we'll get into in a little bit, but we are expanding and we're essentially a global brand. X-golf America is its own arm of it, but X-Golf was started in South Korea, but they're not going to do a lot of brand awareness right here in America, right? So it's our job in America and Canada to do that brand awareness right here in America, right? So we're good. It's our job in America and Canada to do that brand awareness, and so that is our number one marketing goal right now.

Brian Sheehan: 11:35

You mentioned the number of courses you can play. I'm curious how many do you have now? What's the goal? How many courses do you want to ultimately be able to play?

Michael Ruvolo: 11:45

Yeah, right now we have about 50. We've got Pebble Beach, we got St Andrews, we have Bethpage, which is the site of the Ryder Cup this year. We've got Oakmont, which is the site of the US Open this year. So it's actually a big year for us. As far as the courses on our simulators, we've got PGA National, we've got a bunch of PGA courses as well, but we also have a large collective of South Korean courses because of our technology coming from South Korea.

Michael Ruvolo: 12:11

But to answer your question, the number of courses, I'd like as many as possible. I just want to give our customers the options to choose whatever course they want. But at the end of the day, the most heavily played courses are Pebble Beach, st Andrews. We have Kapalua. That's a very, very heavily played course as well. But so I would say the goal is by the end of this year to be up upwards of 60, 65, and then continue to grow that with our Korean counterparts they're helping us develop, that we do have a development team as well, but they'll help us develop that I would feel comfortable if we get anywhere between 100 and 150 courses while continuing to grow. But once we get, we're going to strive to get to that point within the next probably three years, two to three years.

Brian Sheehan: 12:55

Thinking about the design of each location, and you've been involved with X-Golf for a number of years. I'm curious how you approach the design of it. I'm really thinking about how has the design changed over time? Has it changed much since you first became involved with it? Has it evolved in any significant way?

Michael Ruvolo: 13:19

Yeah, I think the answer to that is we leave the design of each store we have in the past up to the franchisees, right? So like the franchisees can pick their design, they give it to us for approval. We're going to help them with that, because the successful stores, the high, high, successful stores that we've seen, they don't have like private rooms per se. Everybody wants to be together in this environment. That for leagues and tournaments, that they could see what the other bay is doing, they can see what everybody else is doing. They're interacting with everybody else. You can still block them off, like with curtains or whatever, for private parties and stuff like that. They only want to rent out three simulators, but we don't really want to have some exclusive area and in the past the past group, before I got in here, my predecessor, would say that they kind of wanted to do as many simulators as possible in each location. I have a different philosophy in that aspect. So I think that when I look at the numbers of each store, and without getting into the specifics of the numbers, the best stores reside within that six to eight simulator range. Mostly, to be honest with you, seven has been a perfect number for simulators. That either keeps your rent down, which I'm sure you've talked about a lot in the past with this being a retail podcast but keeping that rent down, keeping your overhead down, while also maximizing your revenue. And the maximization of revenue is having some kind of demand for your product. If you get up into nine, 10, 11 simulators, it's hard to have that demand, especially in the summer when our numbers do significantly drop because we are a little bit seasonal but we're a lot seasonal, to be honest with you, but we are making strides to improve that. But you don't want your simulators just sitting there not being used during the summer. Which seven simulators you might get used, seven during June or July, maybe once or twice a month at the same time. But you know, obviously come October through March, we usually have about a three-day waiting period before you can get into our facility. So if you don't make a appointment out three days in advance, you're very hard pressed to get a time.

Michael Ruvolo: 15:26

So my philosophy has been keep it to that six to eight simulators, keep it between, you know, 5,500 to 7,500 square feet, keep the bar a relatively good size. There's not a ton of people just coming in to drink beer and sit at the bar and that's the lessons that I learned personally on a franchisee level, right? So my first store had 40 seats around the bar and I was like, oh, we're going to get people in here for bars and blah, blah, blah. It just didn't happen. And that's okay. That store does very well. But I made the adjustment in the next store to make the bar a lot smaller while not taking away the type of space that I needed for taps. So I still have 12 taps, but the bar is eight seats in Denver. And then I adjust it from there, and Omaha is a little different, colorado Springs even a little bit different.

Michael Ruvolo: 16:16

And now I'm using that knowledge, and my team is using that knowledge, to go hey, this is what we've seen successful in the past. Where do you put the bar compared to the simulators? When you walk in the door, you want the bar and the simulators to hit you in the face. So you want people to know what it is when they walk in the door, because a lot of our windows need to be blacked out because of the sun affecting the picture on the screen. So you want that bar and that simulator to hit you in the face. Then people walk in and go. Okay, I know what this is now, so it's a good concept.

Brian Sheehan: 16:49

Do you find there's a substantial portion of your customer base that views this as a neighborhood pub? I mean, do you get people that just come in that just want to sit around talk about golf? Watch golf on TV, maybe, and don't use the simulators?

Michael Ruvolo: 17:06

Yes, I would say that probably ranges by location and, to be honest with you, the involvement of the owner of the franchisee or the general manager, and what kind of relationship he has with his local people. At my stores we strive for that community-based relationship and we're trying to breed that amongst all the rest of the franchisees, and they're doing a great job of it. Right now I have probably 10% to 15% of our customers that'll come in and just hang out, watch beer and watch other people play. So that's a great thing to have, obviously, but at the end of the day, your main revenue is going to come from those simulators.

Brian Sheehan: 17:40

Sure, I'm curious. You talked a little bit about retail and we obviously focus a lot on this podcast about that. How important are the retail sales in any store's location, and do you want this to be a place where people are coming in for club fittings? You know they're going to buy equipment, balls, apparel, those types of things.

Michael Ruvolo: 18:03

Yeah, we don't heavily focus on it. To be honest with you, it's probably about 5% of our business, depending on the store, depending on the pro that you have for club fittings and stuff like that. We just do custom club fittings at% of our business, depending on the store, depending on the pro that you have for club fittings and stuff like that. We just do custom club fittings at most of our locations If they have a pro on staff that gives lessons and does club fittings. I have a pro on staff in two of my five locations. So no, they can move back and forth to different locations and stuff like that, but I think that we probably have. You know, lesson sales are about 2% of our business, so they're not a huge part of our business, but lesson sales drive everything else within our business. So if you get someone in for lessons, they're going to see the environment, they're going to see that they want to play league, they're going to see that they want to play tournaments. They're going to see that they want to have just a lot of fun.

Michael Ruvolo: 18:50

As far as the retail goes, we don't do a whole lot of retail. I'm wearing a hat that I bought at my store right now, but we've done a little bit of retail. The ones that I see that do the best are probably hats and gloves, and we get our gloves from a manufacturer through our corporate office, but people forget their gloves and they'll come in. Hey, I need a glove, and okay, we got those gloves for you here. I think some stores try to do the bad birdies and the shirts that are embroidered with X-Golf.

Michael Ruvolo: 19:16

It's a tough business. You know that Buying all that overhead is always a tough ask for some of these stores, because then the models change and the styles change every year. And because we are, you know, these stores also are obligated for a royalty which, and because we are, you know, these stores also are obligated for a royalty which. Our royalty is 7% and then a 1% marketing fee. So 8% of everything that they sell out of their store has to go to the corporate office. So when you have to put those things on sale, it cuts down on your margin and it just takes up space in the facility. So I encourage it to have it, but I also encourage it to be on a limited basis, just because of the space. I want the space to be filled up with those simulators because they are not cheap and that is their biggest investment for each of these franchisees. But it is also good to have funny shirts that are tailored towards your store, and we give them the freedom to do that as well.

Brian Sheehan: 20:10

I wanted to ask you about. So when I'm at the driving range, I see more and more people integrating technology into their sessions, and I'm curious how you think about that. Is this it's not necessarily competition for what you're providing, but maybe in some ways it is. How do you think about it?

Michael Ruvolo: 20:34

Yeah, with the launch monitors. The launch monitors is a great question, right, the technology aspect of the launch monitors has only grown. Golf, and you know, I think it's a benefit to us If you want to go out. I belong to a country club as well, so I'm not one of these guys that says, oh no, you can't go outside anymore because I'm the indoor golf guy and I golf outside all the time. If the weather's great, yeah, I would definitely prefer to golf outside. We all get that, we all understand that, but we have to find ways to drive them in.

Michael Ruvolo: 21:12

As far as the data analytics part of things on the launch monitor, I think that that's where sports has gone over the last 15, 20 years. You know my involvement in pro sports since then has ever since. My whole career has been involved with data analytics of swings or baseball and that's what they use. Everything is Everything is data analytics driven. Everybody's got a data analytics team. We have a data analytics team. We use a data analytics system to find locations for franchisees, so I'm all for as much data as you want. Now we do have a driving range on our simulators and it could provide data for you, and we have an app that hooks up. We're improving that app. We need to improve that app Be the first person to say that so that actually gives you correct data for that instance of your, your range session. If people want to come in and find their their numbers, they don't just have to remember them in their head. They're going to have them on their app or they're going to have it on a piece of paper. We have to figure out ways to print that out for them.

Michael Ruvolo: 22:04

But I'm all for launch monitors. They're great, you know, I think, without getting too much into it, but the biggest. I think we'll probably get into it a little bit, but you know, our biggest supporter, in an like a you know weird way, the biggest thing for golf was Topgolf. In my opinion, for the, the non-outdoor side of golf, right, topgolf is fantastic and I they deserve so much. They are a fantastic organization that we strive to be half as good as them. That would be awesome. But they've done such a good job of identifying what the average golfer wants. They just want fun. I mean, my wife loved Topgolf because she can barely hit a ball, but she'll go out there and she'll miss a ball, but it'll go into some random hole and she gets 10 points for it, right? So those kind of interactive games For sure, with the launch monitors.

Michael Ruvolo: 22:55

We're talking about the very, very dialed in golfers, and heck, we want those guys as customers too. And we do get those guys in the winter, especially right In the colder areas or even in some of our warmer locations. I bet you they get them in the summer because, to be frank, I don't know if I want to play within 115 degrees in Dallas, texas, in June or July. That's a tough ask, I think, when you can play 18 holes in an hour inside or you can go sweat to death outside and not see the cart grow for five holes. So it's a tough ask, but that's how we have to combat it a little bit. So it's a tough ask, but that's how we have to combat it a little bit.

Brian Sheehan: 23:32

Thinking about the future. Where do you want to see X-Golf America five years from now?

Michael Ruvolo: 23:39

What are your growth goals. Yeah, we expect to be at 300 franchise locations with before, so January of 2031, right, so January 2031,. We expect to be at 300 locations. We're currently at 130, with another 15 signed up, and we also would expect to be anywhere between 20 to 35 franchise owned locations, which we are currently at five. So we do see a very expansive growth, very quick, expansive growth, very quick. These simulator stores can get up between anywhere between six to nine months, depending on, you know, liquor licenses and stuff like that. But that's where we kind of see the future going. Then, from there, we hope to be in all 50 states by then as well. So we got another 12 to go.

Brian Sheehan: 24:25

That's awesome. What advice would you give to someone looking to start a business in the call it entertainment or sports retail sector?

Michael Ruvolo: 24:36

When I looked at it and that's where I can give my advice is how I did it. I looked at where can I have the freedom to do a little bit of what I wanted while also getting the best technology? The reason I did the franchise model is because X-Colf has the best technology and I also want to know that I'm going to get a support. Because what am I paying a royalty for if I'm not going to get a support from the franchise itself? If they're just going to open the doors and say, hey, good luck, pay me my money at the end of the month, I don't think that that's fair, and so that's why my focus was how can I support these franchisees? Right when I got in here. But I also want to look at the industry. Like, what industry are you going into?

Michael Ruvolo: 25:17

I want to say I got a little bit lucky with X-Golf, with the golf industry essentially taking off during COVID. I mean it was doing well beforehand, but then COVID hits and bam, I can't get a tee time outside, so I go inside. It's wild, but that has helped the golf industry immensely. But I just want to look at do your research on the competition. I've researched every competitor alive before I opened my X-Golfs and I could do that research again, and it takes a couple of weeks, but it's not that hard. Go visit the sites. Make sure it's something that you want to dedicate your time to, too.

Michael Ruvolo: 25:57

I'm all in. If it was this or a McDonald's or whatever, I was going to be all in, and I don't think there's ever a get rich quick scheme. I really don't, and I think that some people might have this concept that I'm just going to open the doors and let somebody else do it, and I really like to do it myself. I like to be in there. I was pouring beers for two years and I was, you know, cleaning bathrooms and sweeping floors, so you know as much all in as you can be. I think that's the biggest case as well that we've seen for people to be successful.

Brian Sheehan: 26:30

I'm curious how much of an impact, if any, the Tiger Woods Golf League indoor stadium simulator has had on your business.

Michael Ruvolo: 26:42

To be 100% honest, significant impact. They don't use the same simulators as us, which is fine, but every time that one of those I enjoyed it, by the way, I really did enjoy it. I think that they did an amazing job with it. They got the players to buy in, which was amazing they definitely did. Every time that it aired on ESPN the next day, we would have 20 to 25 inquiries of new franchisees on our website. We weren't doing any marketing at the time of trying to get new franchisees. We would have 20 to 25 the next day. Every other day we're getting you know between two to five, to be honest with you, but every time that aired, we would have 20 to 25. And so it is a great thing for golf and a big driver.

Michael Ruvolo: 27:28

Huge driver and shoot Tiger and Rory. Those guys are on another level of smart than me, so I'm not ashamed that I will tail anybody that is smarter than me. I am definitely not the smartest person in X-Golf America. I have surrounded myself with very, very smart people that are very, very good at their jobs, and I think that that's what every good leader should strive to do is admit when they're not the smartest person in the world, and I really, really feel that way. Our team is amazing. We're a smaller team right now, but we are getting bigger, but they really are some geniuses. I just hope they don't listen to this, actually, because they might come at me a little bit more, but no, it's great and, yeah, it was great for us.

Brian Sheehan: 28:12

Michael, before I let you go here, I want to run through just some real estate questions with you quickly. Please Remind me again what are the size requirements for an X-Golf?

Michael Ruvolo: 28:23

We strive to stay between 5,500 and 7,500 square feet, between six to eight simulators. We can finagle them to fit in anywhere you want, pretty much with a bar, and then just the ability to obtain a liquor license is kind of our requirements. We also like a parking lot close because 95% of the people bring their clubs. So a parking lot close is really good, so people can just access your store with their clubs very easily.

Brian Sheehan: 28:49

And you're opening both corporate and franchise locations.

Michael Ruvolo: 28:53

Yep, yep, we're currently have four opened franchise franchise or locations, with one on the way, and then we currently are as well expanding more on the franchisee side of things right now. In the next two to three years we'll probably open more franchise or stores as well, but current focus would be on franchisee stores.

Brian Sheehan: 29:13

And then, who do you look for in terms of co-tenants? What do you want to be near?

Michael Ruvolo: 29:18

Yeah, I think that we've seen a lot of success in a relatively close proximity to Topgolf I know I've mentioned them before as well as movie theaters have been a very, very high success rate being around them, and I think the reason for that is people walk by and before they go in the movie they come into X-Golf and they're like, oh, I didn't know what this was, but now we got it. So that goes back to our brand awareness thing. And then big box stores. You know Target's great because you get a lot of walking traffic. We have a system called Buxton and I'm sure you're aware of Buxton, but we use Buxton as well to tell where the success we see, the success of stores, and where the next successful store is compared to those characteristics, and a lot of mobile data and stuff like that. It's kind of creepy but it's. It's really good data.

Brian Sheehan: 30:01

I imagine you're looking for, you know, a lot of golfers in a trade area. Maybe not, but are there any other demographic requirements that you're looking for?

Michael Ruvolo: 30:11

Yeah, golfers, I think between the ages of 25 and 55, with the good amount of an expendable income. Obviously, because it is fun entertainment. It is cheaper than outdoor golf, but it's still golf. So it's still not the cheapest, obviously, but we strive to keep those prices manageable. But the bays are per hour, not per person, so you can have up to six people on a bay and it's only, you know, 50 bucks an hour. You're only paying nine bucks a bay, or nine bucks a person per hour or whatever. So that kind of thing, yeah, golf courses nearby are very good as well. You know popular golf courses. Those also help as well.

Brian Sheehan: 30:47

Well, michael, it was great speaking with you today. Thank you for joining me on Retail Intel. Be sure to check out XGolf America in person and on Instagram at XGolf America. Whether you're an aspiring real estate mogul, a seasoned pro or simply curious about the places where we shop, dine, play and work, this podcast is your all-access pass to the world of commercial real estate. Connect with me on LinkedIn and, if you're interested in being a part of the Retail Intel podcast, send a message to nationalaccounts at phillipsedisoncom. If you want to hear more about new and expanding brands like X-Golf America, keep tuning in to Retail Intel and please subscribe, follow, like and repost. Talk to you next time.